Author Topic: AeroVee Aeroinjector woes!  (Read 532 times)

shocktrooper

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AeroVee Aeroinjector woes!
« on: Oct 06, 2017 »
My 1982 yr. mod. S2L was flown (delivered) to me by previous owner, with a recently overhauled GP 2180 (2074cc actual) w/ Revmaster injector. I saw it fly twice, before I bought it with no apparent issues noted. I purchased a brand new AeroVee injector as (in my mind), an upgrade effort to modernize with a 'newer' and (perhaps) more reliable design. The original always leaked fuel when parked and would only run the engine on the very edge of 'Idle Cutoff' position. Howeve, IT WOULD allow the engine to start reasonably easy and it would low idle (825 - 925rpm indicated), on up to WOT without stumbling.
Now I find that with the new AeroVee the engine is very difficult to start(hand prop/no starter), and refuses to low idle. When I do finally get it to run, I have to crank it at a min. of 1/2 throttle position in full rich which yields about 2400rpm indicated. It will take WOT(3200rpm ind.) chained down and chocked,  from this throttle setting, but will stumble and die if any gradual OR rapid reduction of throttle is attempted.
For the record, I follow all routine prep. steps of priming, pulling blades through, etc. with the mag off, before actually pulling prop through for a start up. I know that the mag is timed correctly and functions normally.
Since it is still late summer/early fall in my locale, early a.m. attempts eventually yield a start up result, but after the engine gets hot, and either it dies, or I shut it down, forget it...I can prop and prop and prop till the cows come home! NO JOY! Very frustrating and way too much labor! So far, I have the middle #2 needle installed, (as delivered from mfg.), and have run the gamut of rich to lean fuel settings with the mix screw.
Although I am a retired A&P, I make no bones or have no delusions about the fact that all I know about this fuel metering/induction system is what I read in the supplied owners and installation manual. I have been led to believe also, that the VWs need to be run on the rich side under all parameters rather than too lean.
I don't know what the HECK this dang fuel system and engine wants from me! Since its' so darn hard to get started...it wears my old butt out hand propping, so I end up putting it back in the hanger (every time) for another day!...thus it gives me little to no opportunity to experiment with diff. needles and settings, or anything else for that matter.
I am disappointed, frustrated, mad, confused, ignorant AND GROUNDED!
Any AeroVee injector / Great Plains engine users out there with similar problems in the initial install and setup?
I will listen and take heed to any and all with 'good information'.
Thanks in advance.













Proud American, US Army vet and retired A&P. Now, at last, I can have some fun!

mhflyit

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Re: AeroVee Aeroinjector woes!
« Reply #1 on: Oct 06, 2017 »
Best advice I received:
1. Run with the cowling on
2. Make sure your slide idle setting is correct - too much gap and you'll be running lean
3. Start immediately after turning fuel on and setting the mixture rich or it will flood and won't start
4. Make sure you have spark ;-)
5. Check the fuel connection to the carb is slightly higher than the low point drain
6. Be sure the carb. intake isn't in any airflow - will run lean/stumble
7. make only 1/4 or 1/8 needle adjustments
8. move the throttle smoothly
Matt

Pttim

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Re: AeroVee Aeroinjector woes!
« Reply #2 on: Oct 07, 2017 »
I wish I could help,  although I have never hand propped mine it always fires on 2 or 3 blades, dead of winter or heat of summer.  My aero carb is set up pretty lean at high rpm.  It is slightly richer at idle.   #2 needle.  Idle speed 950-1000 rpm.

Not sure of your technique on start, but if it was me, I would introduce fuel for 2-3 seconds then shut fuel off.  Turn on mag switch and prop it.  As soon as it starts reintroduce fuel.
Pttim
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Chucker

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Re: AeroVee Aeroinjector woes!
« Reply #3 on: Oct 07, 2017 »
Put the Revflow back on and call Joe Horvath. You’ll be in the air before you know it. Just my $.02.

Chucker

eschrom

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Re: AeroVee Aeroinjector woes!
« Reply #4 on: Oct 07, 2017 »
Hi Shock,

Sorry about your woes. I have the older version, called an Aerocarb, and am happy with it. With the number 2 needle it runs richer at part throttle than at full, but it runs well over the whole spectrum and takes throttle setting changes without stumbling. A few pieces of advice:

  • Make sure you are drawing cowling air, not outside air, and definitely not ram air.
  • The erratic behavior you describe almost sounds like something is loose. Is the set screw that locks the needle screw tight?
  • Next time you get it to run, examine the plugs afterward to see whether you are rich or lean, then adjust the needle accordingly in 1/8 or 1/4 turn increments.

Let us know how you make out.

Ed
GP 2180

Pttim

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Re: AeroVee Aeroinjector woes!
« Reply #5 on: Oct 07, 2017 »
As Ed says I have aero carb also!  Ed is there a difference?
Pttim
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eschrom

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Re: AeroVee Aeroinjector woes!
« Reply #6 on: Oct 08, 2017 »
Hi Tim,

According to their web site:

Quote
A new version of the AeroCarb, the AeroInjector, has now been introduced to replace the AeroCarb line of throttle body injectors. The AeroInjector is essentially identical to the AeroCarb in function, however, the body has been lightened by approximately 9 ounces, and is more compact in size. We've named the new product AeroInjector to drive-home the point that this device is a throttle body injector and not a carburetor by true definition, and therefore does not require carb heat.

Ed

mhflyit

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Re: AeroVee Aeroinjector woes!
« Reply #7 on: Oct 08, 2017 »
685L has the AeroInjector.
It does take some tweaking.
Matt

Pttim

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Re: AeroVee Aeroinjector woes!
« Reply #8 on: Oct 08, 2017 »
That’s what I thought Ed same only different look.  You up and flying yet?
Pttim
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shocktrooper

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Re: AeroVee Aeroinjector woes!
« Reply #9 on: Oct 19, 2017 »
Hi Shock,

Sorry about your woes. I have the older version, called an Aerocarb, and am happy with it. With the number 2 needle it runs richer at part throttle than at full, but it runs well over the whole spectrum and takes throttle setting changes without stumbling. A few pieces of advice:

  • Make sure you are drawing cowling air, not outside air, and definitely not ram air.
  • The erratic behavior you describe almost sounds like something is loose. Is the set screw that locks the needle screw tight?
  • Next time you get it to run, examine the plugs afterward to see whether you are rich or lean, then adjust the needle accordingly in 1/8 or 1/4 turn increments.

Let us know how you make out.

Ed
GP 2180

Thx much fellas for the tips and assistance. Sorry to be so slow to respond...had some other than aviation, unexpected issues come up that engulfed me! Am actually headed out to the field today to try all of this again and will be armed with all of your tips and advice. I will confess that I was running with the cowlings off, to ease access and allow more 'wind' across the engine since I always chain it down and chock it for safety...since no intentions to taxi or fly it until I get her to start and idle correctly. It is a remote private field and I am usually all-alone out there. I would be undiscovered for hours in a day if I were to have a mishap or numbskull accident. After a lifetime of working around and about spinning props and turbines...I am extremely cautious, to say the least! It is really hot and humid in the past weeks / months here in NC! I am very leery of overtemping those heads during static runs! But today...forecast is for dew point of 47 and a mild 74F...a perfect day here in these parts. I will post asap after today's attempts and let ya'll know. Thanks again fellas, I REALLY appreciate all the help and encourage anyone else with 2cents to add to chime in. I ALWAYS listen to "those who know".
Regs,
JJ in NC
Proud American, US Army vet and retired A&P. Now, at last, I can have some fun!

Pttim

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Re: AeroVee Aeroinjector woes!
« Reply #10 on: Oct 19, 2017 »
JJ,   Cant stress enough that the aeorcarb does not like disturbed air, cowling on at all times for testing.  I know it is a pain to adjust it like that but a necessary evil.  #2 needle like Ed says works for mine as well.
Pttim
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Smokyray

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Re: AeroVee Aeroinjector woes!
« Reply #11 on: Oct 20, 2017 »
ST,
Originally 994SP had a 2180 with an Ellison TBI installed. My previous experience with Ellison”s was on my 0320 powered RV4. TBIs by design are finicky with air induction and harder to start than carbs. I used a set procedure every time to start thev2180 which included 3 shots of primer, pre heat below 50degrees and a filtered air intake. The key is no direct airflow into an injector as turbulent air will affect its performance greatly.
If all that doesn’t work, thev1835 I installed has a Zenith Carb on it that works superbly across the board. Additionally they are readily available new and I believe a better match for the VeeDub induction.

https://www.steinertractor.com/FDS3507Carburetor-New-Zenith?CID=FDS3507&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI-c2irfj-1gIVgkSGCh14RQf_EAQYASABEgLZifD_BwE

V/R
Smokey

PS: from a fellow Vet, thanks for your service...
« Last Edit: Oct 20, 2017 by Smokyray »

kennyw

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Re: AeroVee Aeroinjector woes!
« Reply #12 on: Oct 20, 2017 »
Hey Smokey, is the FDS3507 the direct replacement for the older Zenith 1821?  I see 1821 listed in your documentation.  But, GPAS doesn't list that number.  They do show an "1822".

Thanks!

Smokyray

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Re: AeroVee Aeroinjector woes!
« Reply #13 on: Oct 20, 2017 »
Ken,
The 3507 is a direct replacement for the 1821. “TC” the engine builder modified the 1821 with a gear drive float bowl mixture control that is quite the engineering marvel. I had a 3507 on my Ford Jubilee Tractor and it’s literally bulletproof. The 1822 is GP’s model with the added attach plate.

You’ll like the Zenith, especially if you ever prop start somebody else’s without one!

V/R
Smokey

shocktrooper

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Re: AeroVee Aeroinjector woes!
« Reply #14 on: Oct 21, 2017 »
Wanted to let all of you know, who have offered their advice and solutions to my "AeroVee Injector Woes", that; attempting to run the engine with the cowlings (off), was apparently the major issue preventing smooth idle and throttle response! WHODATHUNKIT!? Man what a difference! I am still 'learning' the ideal procedures for the pre-start prep, the 'order of operations', if you will.
Now must get my dance steps down-pat, e.g.. getting the just-right amount of prime, pulling the correct number of blades through before making the mag hot, getting the throttle 'cracked-open' enough but not too-much, getting spun around & my hand to that cockpit fuel valve in time after she fires...whew! This little-bird is quite demanding of her pilot, to wake her up!
I did get it to idle as low as approx. 1,200rpm ind. but any lower and she starts to stumble and die. I will address that after I get the WOT settings dialed in. I wanted to taxi test it with a new (additional) 2nd tailwheel steering rod that I fabricated and installed on the left side to match the right side... So it was not chained down for a full WOT/EGT range test. And obviously, the plane, nor I, am ready to rotate out for flight yet! I am not crazy about the idea of having only one steering rod back there, since my home field is grass, and I will be visiting numerous such private strips in the area, as well as the public paved airports, etc. The thought of only one rod, that could fail, and then there would be nothing but throttle-powered prop wash over a very small rudder & diff. braking, to safely steer a short coupled, fast little tail dragger with, seems quite dangerous (to me). Has anyone else considered this and added a 2nd rod to the tailwheel assembly?
But in closing this reply...again...I am SO grateful to you guys for your your inputs thus far and now see that I can likely get this little bird dialed in and ready to run, "like-ah-scalded-dog", as we southern NC country-boys sometimes say!
Thanks to you as well Smokyray, for the vet-recognition kudos & YOUR service to our great nation too, 'brother'!
I ask that we keep this thread alive for as long as anyone has more to add and advise, to help me along as a rookie (Sonerai) owner, mech. & E/AB pilot. :o
Thx, JJ
Proud American, US Army vet and retired A&P. Now, at last, I can have some fun!

 

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