582 Rotax

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Doug Sask

Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2020
Messages
8
Anyone running one of these? I am looking at purchasing a 2L project that comes with one of these. I had it in my mind to use a VW (a Hummel maybe). Any thoughts? Anyone interested in this engine if it does wind up in my possession?
 

Smokyray

www.iamanet.org
Joined
Aug 6, 2015
Messages
232
Location
TX32
Fred mentioned a S2 builder installing a 582 many moons ago. It was so light he was able to solo from the front seat. I've flown one in a Kitfox, strong smooth engine. Requires de carboning, plug cleaning and general look over more often than a 4 stroke and is liquid cooled but many have been flying for a long time and it is an aircraft designed specific engine, vice the VW which isn't. One possibility would be rebuilding/converting it to a 618 which cranks out nearly 80HP.
V/R
Smokey
 

n109jb

Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2013
Messages
15
Location
Morris, IL
The notion that the 582 is an engine designed specifically for aircraft is in my opinion poppycock. The basic engine design has been used in snowmobiles and PWC for eons prior it ever being put on an airplane. Yes the 582 version was specifically marketed for use on experimental airplanes and it does have some specific differences, but that doesn't make it a purpose designed engine. Rotax themselves has these disclaimers in their operator's manual for the 582.

"This engine, by its design, is subject to sudden stoppage. Engine stoppage can result in crash landings, forced landings or no power landings. Such crash landings can lead to serious bodily injury or death..."

"This is not a certificated aircraft engine. It has not received any safety or durability testing, and conforms to no aircraft standards. It is for use in experimental, uncertificated aircraft and vehicles only in which an engine failure will not compromise safety. "

"User assumes all risk of use, and acknowledges by his use that he knows this engine is subject to sudden stoppage..."

"Never fly the aircraft equipped with this engine at locations, airspeeds, altitudes, or other circumstances from which a successful no-power landing cannot be made, after sudden engine stoppage. "

"Aircraft equipped with this engine must only fly in DAYLIGHT VFR conditions."


Having said that, i have a Kitfox that is powered by a 582 and it is a decent engine on that airframe but it does require careful attention to operation in order to keep it operating within all of the various limitations. For example, EGT can climb above redline easily simply by making a partial throttle descent. It is manageable but has to be flown differently than a 4-stroke engine. Cold weather operation requires even more care. Is it a good engine? I think it is for certain purposes. On a Kitfox that can land at 30 mph and stop in about 200ft, yes. On something like a Sonerai I personally would not consider one over a VW conversion, but that is just me.
 

DeadRinger

Active Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2012
Messages
31
Location
KAPV
How about a polini

 

Doug Sask

Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2020
Messages
8
A bit on the small side..... I'm looking for safe and proven at a practical price. I like vw with dual plug ign system best so far. Anyone got anything for sale?
 

Induna

Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2019
Messages
21
Location
South Africa
I am in the process of installing a Rotax 912, which has the 95hp xtra kit installed.

The 912 series had been proven over and over for reliability and that is what i am after. I had a bad experience with a vw engine in the past, hence my selection.
 

DeadRinger

Active Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2012
Messages
31
Location
KAPV
912 is great but needs fuel injection. I’m not a fan of those carbs. Also if the ignition module goes out it’s almost 2grand a piece and the older ones failed. I think that was a over heat issue because they would start working if u put a bag of ice on them. Probably should start a thread on Rotax 900 series problems. Almost forgot vapor lock on the old carb fuel pumps.
 

Induna

Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2019
Messages
21
Location
South Africa
A
912 is great but needs fuel injection. I’m not a fan of those carbs. Also if the ignition module goes out it’s almost 2grand a piece and the older ones failed. I think that was a over heat issue because they would start working if u put a bag of ice on them. Probably should start a thread on Rotax 900 series problems. Almost forgot vapor lock on the old carb fuel pumps.
I agree there were some issues in the past, but those had been fixed. A new fuel pump was introduced as well as installing the restrictor with a return line to the tank. The ignition modules was also redesigned.

Overall the 912 is still the best and most reliable engine one can buy for any LSA aircraft. I think the numbers speak for themselves. Yes they are expensive but it is the most widely used engine today.
 

Smokyray

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Joined
Aug 6, 2015
Messages
232
Location
TX32
Having rebuilt 994SP with the new Ultimate 1835 I learned a few things about bang for buck, and reliability. Installing a custom built, blueprinted 145lb engine that produced 60HP for under 5 grand was amazing to me. This revelation after building 3 RVs with Lycoming power.
Agreed, the 582 isn't an engine I would consider however the question asked was "has it been done?" From lessons learned rebuilding and flying 994SP, my preferred S2 engine would be the latest iteration Jabiru 2200. There are 5 flying in NZ and 1 in Italy all with great reviews. The NZ builder has 6 Sonerais to his credit and told me the J2200 is the perfect engine for the airframe. One of his creations has a UL power up front. Expensive and low production numbers. The 912 sounds good as well, but as mentioned above, bring $$$. That said there is a nice 912 powered S2 video from Italy in the video link.

For me the J2200 is the best call.
V/R
Smokey
 

kennyw

2nd and current "Caretaker" N994SP
Joined
Aug 27, 2017
Messages
146
Location
Mount Vernon, WA
Just saw a video of a Rotax 914 boosted to 50 in/hg by Edge Performance AS. The thing is a screaming monster with a 3 bladed composite prop.

I think Smokey’s idea of a Jab 2200 for the S2 sounds like a fun project. I’ve seen them for sale new for $7500 by a US dealer.
 

DeadRinger

Active Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2012
Messages
31
Location
KAPV
7500 that’s a good deal. I have heard the 3300 6 bangers can overheat the heads. They run smith though.
 

Smokyray

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Messages
232
Location
TX32
Here's a link and video of the most recent J2200 powered (S1) creation of Wayne's World (aircraft shop) WAY down under in NZ

V/R
Smokey
 

DeadRinger

Active Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2012
Messages
31
Location
KAPV
Just saw a video of a Rotax 914 boosted to 50 in/hg by Edge Performance AS. The thing is a screaming monster with a 3 bladed composite prop.

I think Smokey’s idea of a Jab 2200 for the S2 sounds like a fun project. I’ve seen them for sale new for $7500 by a US dealer.
Got a link to that vid must have been 200HP??
 

cosmic

Active Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2006
Messages
35
Location
Australia
Agreed, the 582 isn't an engine I would consider however the question asked was "has it been done?" From lessons learned rebuilding and flying 994SP, my preferred S2 engine would be the latest iteration Jabiru 2200. There are 5 flying in NZ and 1 in Italy all with great reviews.
I'll add my 2 cents in support of the Jabiru engine. The 2200 is well suited to the Sonerai and when setup correctly it is smooth and gives few problems. Here is a link to a short video of another Sonerai 1 "down under" in South Australia but with a Jabiru 3300.

https://youtu.be/QXISyi0ZOFc
 

Karmarepair

Active Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2007
Messages
38
The notion that the 582 is an engine designed specifically for aircraft is in my opinion poppycock. The basic engine design has been used in snowmobiles and PWC for eons prior it ever being put on an airplane. Yes the 582 version was specifically marketed for use on experimental airplanes and it does have some specific differences, but that doesn't make it a purpose designed engine. Rotax themselves has these disclaimers in their operator's manual for the 582.

"This engine, by its design, is subject to sudden stoppage. Engine stoppage can result in crash landings, forced landings or no power landings. Such crash landings can lead to serious bodily injury or death..."

"This is not a certificated aircraft engine. It has not received any safety or durability testing, and conforms to no aircraft standards. It is for use in experimental, uncertificated aircraft and vehicles only in which an engine failure will not compromise safety. "

"User assumes all risk of use, and acknowledges by his use that he knows this engine is subject to sudden stoppage..."

"Never fly the aircraft equipped with this engine at locations, airspeeds, altitudes, or other circumstances from which a successful no-power landing cannot be made, after sudden engine stoppage. "

"Aircraft equipped with this engine must only fly in DAYLIGHT VFR conditions."


Having said that, i have a Kitfox that is powered by a 582 and it is a decent engine on that airframe but it does require careful attention to operation in order to keep it operating within all of the various limitations. For example, EGT can climb above redline easily simply by making a partial throttle descent. It is manageable but has to be flown differently than a 4-stroke engine. Cold weather operation requires even more care. Is it a good engine? I think it is for certain purposes. On a Kitfox that can land at 30 mph and stop in about 200ft, yes. On something like a Sonerai I personally would not consider one over a VW conversion, but that is just me.
Fast, slippery airplanes have a particularly difficult time keeping a 2 stroke happy - that partial power descent, or any time the prop is driving the engine are an invitation to a seizure. The Starlight and the Pulsar ran into this problem. A Sonerai with a 582 would either need spoilers or to make every descent a power-on full cross-control slip.
 

DeadRinger

Active Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2012
Messages
31
Location
KAPV
I guess that’s why some two stroke aircraft now have props that fully disengage. Remember a famous two stroke desert racer that would keep it full throttle all the time and just hit the kill switch to slow down the would keep it from locking up. The fuel and oil would still pump through the engine. Brilliant. Right??
 

mx5tc

Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2018
Messages
21
Location
Naperville, IL
Here's a link and video of the most recent J2200 powered (S1) creation of Wayne's World (aircraft shop) WAY down under in NZ

V/R
Smokey
No doubt, I like the design of the J2200, but it has taken a looong time for the factory to refine it into a reliable and durable aircraft engine. A new 4th gen J2200 is a good engine. A Gen 1 J2200 that requires extensive and expensive mods to reach 4th Gen status may not be a good investment.
 
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