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Insurance?

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J. Metcalfe

Active Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2021
Messages
34
Hello everyone,

I'd like to get some of your opinions and approaches to insuring your sonerais. Do you fly with liability or do some of you prefer a more comprehensive coverage? No coverage? I'd like your input. Thanks!
 
Ed,

Thanks for the info! I think I am going that route too, but I want to shake the collective tree and see what falls out first. 👍
 
Hello everyone,

I'd like to get some of your opinions and approaches to insuring your sonerais. Do you fly with liability or do some of you prefer a more comprehensive coverage? No coverage? I'd like your input. Thanks!
I’ve got Avemco, liability only, $485 /year
 
Speed,

That seems very affordable. I don't have many hours or certifications yet. I will be instrument rated soon but I'll still have around 100 hours. Last quote I got was a few thousand per year.
 
mines still project status, but with a reserved N# I have ground hull and liability for about $3 - 400 with Avemco. (would have to check actual figure- all com with them this renewal was online, slow, and a significant increase over previous years). Mine has to be insured to put fuel in it or have engine operational, in our hangar slot.
Will probably keep same plan (ground hull not in motion) when flying, though expect slight rate increase. As others have noted, it will be me or nothing that fixes anything. & total value of S2 is not high.

Thanks for asking the Q - bound to add info for all of us.

smt
 
My broker is s Air1 out of British Columbia. The policy is with Global. I pay $420 per year for $1,000,000 liability. There is a weird $200 fee they tack on, which is not cool but they are still cheaper than other places.

I have commercial, multi, multi IFR, instructor rating and about 500 hours taildragger. I think all they cared about was the tail time, but I'm not sure.

Canadian dollars.
 
I’ve got Avemco, liability only, $485 /year
I just talked to Avemco at their Oshkosh booth, and they told me they are not insuring Sonerais. And a broker I talked to who deals with several companies said almost no one will cover an auto conversion, including VWs.
Dave
 
I received a quote from Avemco at the show for my just certificated SIIL. It was quite high for liability only - more than double the other rates you guys are listing. I figured it was my low T/W time. I plan to call them next week to understand what I can do to bring the cost down.
Ed
 
Just throwing this out for morning coffee. Not exactly sure why anyone needs liability for a Sonerai or any small, low-weight, amateur-built aircraft. I see it as akin to comfort food. There are two primary sources of claims: 1) Things you damage with your aircraft because you are at fault; and, 2) People you damage because you forgot to apply the rules on how to fly.

If you collide in the air or spin into a corn field, you are most likely without worries. You could run over a runway light or taxi into someone's plane or a hangar. Someone could walk into your prop. Most of us take safety measures to avoid those happenings. If you are unsafe, get insurance no matter the cost for the benefit of the others, not you.

All liability is based on the notion that the person alleged to be at fault was engaged in unreasonable behavior, either operating, maintaining, or constructing the aircraft.

Bird is unsafe?:
Someone alleges that you built an aircraft that was unreasonably failure prone or you failed to reasonably maintain it. Very difficult claim. FAA won't grant an airworthiness if your aircraft fails to meet technical requirements. Hiring someone to do your annual condition inspection puts that person on the hook, not you regarding maintenance. Your documentation of reasonably safe practices is also a form of insurance. Keep the logs up to date.

That little "Experimental" plaque and disclaimer on your panel provides substantial liability protection regarding issues with the machine. That is called assumption of risk. People who take a seat do it at their own risk. Similar to riding a horse. Be sure to point it out.

You can easily avoid liability for any machine issues by creating and transferring aircraft ownership and registration to a LLC that owns and operates the LLC as a non-profit. You are the sole member and the aircraft is the sole asset. That would provide a bit of insulation for you as the pilot also, since you can blame the LLC for its negligence and it only has the aircraft as an asset. Use a business lawyer to create the LLC. If you are going to do it, have it done right. If the lawyer screws it up, you can sue the lawyer. If you screw it up, you are just screwed. The forms are pretty much fill in the blanks, so don't let a shyster take you for a ride. But recall the adage: If you can't afford to lose it, insure it.

You are unsafe:
If your unreasonable behavior injures or kills someone, the stakes are much higher. Some injured family could sue you (you are still alive) or your estate (you are dead) AND you or your estate has assets worth going after. If you don't have a lot of personal assets, very few lawyers like Lerner & Rowe are going to waste their time chasing you or your estate. Insurance polices are always the target unless there is a corporation like Cessna with substantial assets. Figure that it would take a minimum of $50,000 in expert fees to bring a homebuilt aircraft case to trial (for most lawyers who are clueless about aircraft, figure 10x that amount in costs). If your estate only has $100,000, what lawyer is going to wager $50,000 or $500,000 to make $50,000? Only an idiot lawyer. They do exist, but are few and far between.

Strategies:
If you keep your liquid assets (bank accounts) in joint tenancy they pass automatically to spouse upon your death. In that situation, there is very minimal spousal exposure since the spouse was not flying and usually not the builder. They did not engage in any wrongful behavior. Your stuff becomes their stuff when they pick you out of the corn. If you are only injured, then you still own your stuff. Jeff Bezos or a Walton would have worries, not so much us.

For most of us, our biggest asset is our residential property - our house. If you are married and your state allows (most do) you should take title as "tenants by the entireties and not as tenants in common". That is available for married people only. That creates an indivisible property estate and no-one can collect by trying to attach "your undivided half" of that property. It stays undivided and uncollectible until or if you divorce or one dies. Then, your one-half becomes a collectible judgment asset if you are alive when judgment is entered against you. You can quit claim your property back to you and your spouse to create a tenancy by the entireties. Hire a RE lawyer to do that. Highly advised. There is essentially no target for recovery on a claim if you do not have an insurance policy or don't keep your mattress stuffed with money.

If you are single, either stay poor or get married and become impoverished. :cool:
 
Hello everyone,

I'd like to get some of your opinions and approaches to insuring your sonerais. Do you fly with liability or do some of you prefer a more comprehensive coverage? No coverage? I'd like your input. Thanks!
I have a Tri-pacer and a sonerai i haven't flown and am still working on but when I left a avemco & went to falcon my insurance dropped by HALF
 
Avemco has news letters and safety briefings they issue out like a quarterly magazine type of thing, online. Now somebody is getting paid at a avemco to write those and YOU are helping to pay their wages. Avemco has extra frills and that cost money. Falcon is recommended. By the EAA they are much cheaper. Use them or anybody else but avemco is the industry leader in price. They cost more than most everyone else.
 
Just throwing this out for morning coffee. Not exactly sure why anyone needs liability for a Sonerai or any small, low-weight, amateur-built aircraft. I see it as akin to comfort food. There are two primary sources of claims: 1) Things you damage with your aircraft because you are at fault; and, 2) People you damage because you forgot to apply the rules on how to fly.

If you collide in the air or spin into a corn field, you are most likely without worries. You could run over a runway light or taxi into someone's plane or a hangar. Someone could walk into your prop. Most of us take safety measures to avoid those happenings. If you are unsafe, get insurance no matter the cost for the benefit of the others, not you.

All liability is based on the notion that the person alleged to be at fault was engaged in unreasonable behavior, either operating, maintaining, or constructing the aircraft.

Bird is unsafe?:
Someone alleges that you built an aircraft that was unreasonably failure prone or you failed to reasonably maintain it. Very difficult claim. FAA won't grant an airworthiness if your aircraft fails to meet technical requirements. Hiring someone to do your annual condition inspection puts that person on the hook, not you regarding maintenance. Your documentation of reasonably safe practices is also a form of insurance. Keep the logs up to date.

That little "Experimental" plaque and disclaimer on your panel provides substantial liability protection regarding issues with the machine. That is called assumption of risk. People who take a seat do it at their own risk. Similar to riding a horse. Be sure to point it out.

You can easily avoid liability for any machine issues by creating and transferring aircraft ownership and registration to a LLC that owns and operates the LLC as a non-profit. You are the sole member and the aircraft is the sole asset. That would provide a bit of insulation for you as the pilot also, since you can blame the LLC for its negligence and it only has the aircraft as an asset. Use a business lawyer to create the LLC. If you are going to do it, have it done right. If the lawyer screws it up, you can sue the lawyer. If you screw it up, you are just screwed. The forms are pretty much fill in the blanks, so don't let a shyster take you for a ride. But recall the adage: If you can't afford to lose it, insure it.

You are unsafe:
If your unreasonable behavior injures or kills someone, the stakes are much higher. Some injured family could sue you (you are still alive) or your estate (you are dead) AND you or your estate has assets worth going after. If you don't have a lot of personal assets, very few lawyers like Lerner & Rowe are going to waste their time chasing you or your estate. Insurance polices are always the target unless there is a corporation like Cessna with substantial assets. Figure that it would take a minimum of $50,000 in expert fees to bring a homebuilt aircraft case to trial (for most lawyers who are clueless about aircraft, figure 10x that amount in costs). If your estate only has $100,000, what lawyer is going to wager $50,000 or $500,000 to make $50,000? Only an idiot lawyer. They do exist, but are few and far between.

Strategies:
If you keep your liquid assets (bank accounts) in joint tenancy they pass automatically to spouse upon your death. In that situation, there is very minimal spousal exposure since the spouse was not flying and usually not the builder. They did not engage in any wrongful behavior. Your stuff becomes their stuff when they pick you out of the corn. If you are only injured, then you still own your stuff. Jeff Bezos or a Walton would have worries, not so much us.

For most of us, our biggest asset is our residential property - our house. If you are married and your state allows (most do) you should take title as "tenants by the entireties and not as tenants in common". That is available for married people only. That creates an indivisible property estate and no-one can collect by trying to attach "your undivided half" of that property. It stays undivided and uncollectible until or if you divorce or one dies. Then, your one-half becomes a collectible judgment asset if you are alive when judgment is entered against you. You can quit claim your property back to you and your spouse to create a tenancy by the entireties. Hire a RE lawyer to do that. Highly advised. There is essentially no target for recovery on a claim if you do not have an insurance policy or don't keep your mattress stuffed with money.

If you are single, either stay poor or get married and become impoverished. :cool:


Heavy thoughts over morning coffee, but well spoken just the same. As a former business owner I was sued personally several times by customers whose lawyers for some reason did not care much about the LLC portion of the game, and tried to pierce the corporate veil to hold me personally accountable and go after my meager assets. They all lost. The idea of forming an LLC to own the airplane rather than to put it into a trust has some real merit.

I will be shopping insurance in the next year on my Dragonfly, and had not really thought of many of the points you covered, and will put some thought into it.

On another note, my current life insurance, recently switched to the company that provides insurance through my wife's employer, does not pay a dime if I die while PIC of a privately owned aircraft. I think that is just a boilerplate and I will have to add a rider at some point for coverage. Any input?
 
Heavy thoughts over morning coffee, but well spoken just the same. As a former business owner I was sued personally several times by customers whose lawyers for some reason did not care much about the LLC portion of the game, and tried to pierce the corporate veil to hold me personally accountable and go after my meager assets. They all lost. The idea of forming an LLC to own the airplane rather than to put it into a trust has some real merit.

I will be shopping insurance in the next year on my Dragonfly, and had not really thought of many of the points you covered, and will put some thought into it.

On another note, my current life insurance, recently switched to the company that provides insurance through my wife's employer, does not pay a dime if I die while PIC of a privately owned aircraft. I think that is just a boilerplate and I will have to add a rider at some point for coverage. Any input?


You can get cheap AD&D insurance through the EAA. Covers everything including those of us who are fool enough to ride two-wheeled lawn chairs with motors. :cool:
 
Heavy thoughts over morning coffee, but well spoken just the same. As a former business owner I was sued personally several times by customers whose lawyers for some reason did not care much about the LLC portion of the game, and tried to pierce the corporate veil to hold me personally accountable and go after my meager assets. They all lost. The idea of forming an LLC to own the airplane rather than to put it into a trust has some real merit.

I will be shopping insurance in the next year on my Dragonfly, and had not really thought of many of the points you covered, and will put some thought into it.

On another note, my current life insurance, recently switched to the company that provides insurance through my wife's employer, does not pay a dime if I die while PIC of a privately owned aircraft. I think that is just a boilerplate and I will have to add a rider at some point for coverage. Any input?
Check out Ozark National Life insurance they cover me as PIC in privately owned aircraft
 
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