My flippin' arm is falling off!

[sonerainut]

All,

I have a IILS with a Great Plains 2180 engine with a zenith carb. Unfortunately no starter!

I have missed several great flying days because I can't get the darn thing to start! I have been sucessful at times and other times I have flipped till my arm was ready to fall off. I have tried wet, dry, warm cold, waving a dead chicken over the thing, and outright brute force. Today there was no luck! Anyone have a neat trick to starting this thing?

Another option is to add a starter - I have a Diehl case that will accept a top mount starter, but I would have a boat load of cutting on the, firewall, fuselage cross tube, and most likely the front of the tank. Man, I really dont want to do all of that.

Right now I am so disgusted with the thing I have considered selling it and taking up flying spam cans again or worse yet - Golf! So send some ideas and motivation so I'll keep the darn thing.

Oh hey, thanks to all that helped with the Azuza tire and tube questions I had in the past. I actually was able to get the engine started (once) since the new tires and all was well. I think have to balance the wheels (never did) because right at liftoff there is a pretty good vibration. It stops as soon as I tap the brakes.

Thanks!

Lee Riedel

 

[JuergenA]

Hi Lee,
for the first hand prop start, I had flipped about one hour...
Now I have my personal procedure and this will work fine:
1st: flip the prop about 10-20 times (open throttle, fuel off, no ignition), to become fresh air inside the cylinders and apply the oil inside the engine.
2nd: throttle close, mixture about 3/4 to lean, fuel on, ignition on. It starts at 1st to 5th flip.
If not, begin with 1st.
3rd: Mixture more rich to become a stable running.
For example, see my video on this website.
My carburator is a Posa (similar the AeroVee). For the Zenit carburator, take the instructions from GPAS (the system is similar, with lean starting mixture).
My experience is, that the engine wants a more lean mixture for starting as for throttle running (1000rpm).
So I take the mixture always in the same position (little variants) for starting. After first few running seconds,
it is possible to make more rich mixture before the engine quit running while too lean.
regards
Juergen
Remark: I have no primer, but the posa have no float to regulate fuel (Zenit have it). So, if I switch fuel on, fuel drops out at the carburator (very less fuel at idle). I think, it can be a primer effect. For different temperatures, I have only different positions of mixture. I have start the engine at 30

 

[Tucker1]

Hi Lee,

Stick with it...it gets better! My IIL was cold blodded as well untill I came up with something that seemed to work. Like Jergun, I first pull the prop thru normally about 8 times with the throttle wide open and mixture off, ignition off. Then I give it 3 good shots of prime. Then turn on the ignition and pull it thru and most of the time it starts.

Two things I have noticed is, 1) no prime..no start 2) cold engine ...no start! So..I almost always used a hair dryer as an engine pre-heater. I put the hair dryer up the bottom of the cowl and seal off the area with a couple rags. I then seal off the inlet area with a couple rags or you can make cool little inlet covers out of cheap foam and press them into the area. Let the hair dryer run for about 30 minutes or so and you will be amazed at how warm the engine is. Then repeat previous steps and you should be off and running.

Last, I experimented with the primer located in different locations. One being down at the carb and the other up on the intake manifold. Having the primer down by the carb was a mess and just seemed to puddle fuel as I am guessing that hand propping simply can't pull up the fuel..it never vaporized. Later, I removed the left hand side intake and drilled and tapped a small fitting just behind the 90 degree bend to a primer unit mounted on the dash. This works really slick. I hope this helps!

Mark

 

[splischke]

My Sonerai sometimes starts on the first flip. Sometimes it takes 10-20 flips but it's usually pretty well behaved and predictable. Last Friday was different and the darn thing wouldn't start! I flipped and flipped and flipped without even a cough or sputter. I flipped and flipped and flipped again. Nothing. I must have flipped that darn prop a hundred times over 45 minutes. The weather was colder than I normally fly in -- temperature around 40 degree F. -- so I thought that perhaps the fuel from my normal prime dosage was not vaporizing as well. I decided to prime her more -- like triple the squirts I usually give it -- and viola, it started! Flipping a prop as many times as I did has it consequences -- my fingers blistered. See attached photo if you can stomach such things (it's really not that horrific).

-Scott

 

[lqbanotxano]

Hello Lee...

Juegen & Mark don't know what they are talking about....
Your problem is with the chicken. First, it must be a black chicken...second, it must have its head bitten off...and third, it must be waved in a counter clockwise direction. Any deviation from this procedure is futile & your engine will not start.
Seriously, hang in there don't give up. It took me a couple of days to first start & run my engine...and it is a Continental. It took me many starts to come up with a starting procedure. I agree with Juergen & Mark. If everything is correct... timing, carburetor etc...it must be in your procedure. Good luck.

Ivan in Sugar Land, Texas.

 

[EricM]

At least your golf swing will be stronger. ;D

 

[toaddriver]

Hey Sonerainut
I have a few questions a few idea's.
1) If going to a starter the Subaru 90's vintage starter with built in solenoid will match the flywheel teeth and a simple 1/4" aluminum adapter can be fabricated by hand for mounting. Your can find one used at any auto recycling yard for $25.00. I'm not sure they are any shorter in length but my be worth a look.
2) What type of ignition system do you have? I've had mag. with secondary electronic and dual electronic. No experience with distributor or Mag. only, but I'm aware that Mag's put out a soft spark. If I had to hand prop ( groan ) both started within a flip or two. Timing is critical and easy to set.
3) Starting method:
a) All systems off!!
b) Pull choke ON
c) Pull prop thru 6 times
d) Choke to 1/4, Ignition On, nothing else
c) Throttle just off the stop. Please read again, just off the stop!!!!
d) Pull Prop thru and listen to her run!

Good Luck

toad dr

 

[Gaston]

Hi Lee and all

mine is a 1835 with a SU 1 1/2" carb with B6HS ngk plugs at .028" gap.with Slick 4316 single mag,and I have primer at all 4 inlets.

Cold engine .....
1 full primer stroke ,starts at first flip 99% of the time. if not SWITCH OFF MAG,full lean mixture,full open throttle,then 20 flips backwards to eliminate rich mixture and admit fresh air through the exhaust.
then reduce throttle,mixt lean,Mags on, this almost never fails,and is used more often with hot engine.

Hot engine ....
never use primer,mixt lean,throttle lightly open ,mags on and starts
usually very well.if not same as above to change the air.

I found that if I shut off fuel, say, 15 seconds before shutting the mag,the engine will usually fire at first flip, within the next hour.

This procedure works great on mine...

Hope this will help...

Gaston Dorval
S2L C-GPXD

 

[phzabriskie]

Lee, it sounds like a lot of good info here. Did any of it work for you? I have all this fun yet to look forword to.
-Pete Z

 

[sonerainut]

Hello All!

First I would like thank all those that commented - I was really bummed about my starting problem and some encouraging words were much appreciated.

So, did I get it to start? What did I do/didnt do?

Well, I hate to say it but I have to chalk most of my problem up to pilot/builder/owner operator (read - me) error!

Here's the story:

Several weeks after my original post I went to the airport with no intention to fly - I just wanted to get the darn thing to start and run. Temps were about 40 deg F outside. I took the airplane out of the hangar and tied it down for hand propping (I've got this cool mini glider tow type hook on the tail that can be released from the cockpit once I'm all settled/buckled in - maybe I'll send some details/pictures if anyone is interested) The engine was warm from the hangar (believe it or not, it is heated to about 65 deg - talk about a perk from my employer!) so I figured I would try a short shot of prime and partial choke. Several flips (20+) later I started to have flashbacks - Oh man, this stinks!

OK, the air is cold and the fuel is not vaporizing, so let's prime the heck out of it. My primer uses the boost pump (facet cube type) pressure thru a valve that connects to a couple of home brew nozzles (one in each intake tube) that spray onto all four intake valves, so I know I can get fuel into at least one cylinder. On with the boost pump, open with the valve, wait, wait, wait. Hey! The pump is not changing tone!? You know, with no flow it sounds like this jackhammer and with flow it sounds like a different jackhammer.

Last time I tried to start it, by the time I got to priming the thing my heart was beating so hard I could barely hear myself! That was a good reason to stop there anyway....

So, what causes no flow thru my fuel pump? Yeah, and I'm afraid/embarassed to admit it, but I had the STINKING FUEL VALVE TURNED OFF!!!!!!

Yeah, go ahead and laugh. The way I look at it, is that I was testing the ability to shut off the engine using the fuel valve - so if I ever have a need to do so - I know it works! So I've got that going for me....

I need to add that to the checklist - the way I built the fuel shutoff, when it is off it obscures the carb heat and mixture control in the back. Of course, for starting I'm standing by the leading edge of the wing to flip. I'm not proud, but I bet I'll be checking for that every time I start it from now on!

OK, back to the story...

So I OPEN the fuel valve and give it a decent prime (about 7 seconds with my setup) and partial choke (it seems to like a little for a few seconds after it fires) cracked the throttle, ign off, mag off, four flips to spread the prime around (I'm not sure how helpful/harmful this is at this point), mag on, and five flips later it's RUNNING! Oh yeah!

I actually flew it that day (extra bonus!) and I heard a buddy of mine about five miles out and he formed up on me for a quick lap around town and a low approach over the runway - good times! My friend is the owner of a sweet CAP 232 with a screamer 300 horse engine and he kept saying "Man that thing is fast" 70 HP and he says it's fast -I'll take it! OK, It is not the fastest by any margin, but I sure am burning a heck of alot less fuel than he is...

And to top it all off I recieved clearance from my long suffering wife (she supports my aviation habits - a definite keeper!) to stop and get some beer and chicken wings on the way home.

Hey, did I mention I was able to get the engine started....

As I get more experience starting this darn thing, I'll pass on the info.

Thanks for the website - I really enjoy reading and chatting about Sonerai!

Regards,

Lee

 

[phzabriskie]

Great Story, gotta' like happy endings. Thanks.
-Pete Z

 

[splischke]

I "tested" the fuel valve a few times myself! Once was in front of a large crowd at an airport open house.

I went to the airport on Monday just to check on things and decided to run the engine for good measure. This time she started on the first flip. No blistered fingers! I found that my engine is sensitive to prime. If I get the prime right, it starts easily. If not, well...

Happy flying.

 

[Gaston]

Hi Lee
glad to hear you got it running...and flying as a bonus

what a great day...

Gaston Dorval
C-GPXD S2L

 

[Chuck in Indiana]

If it's below 45 degrees, I don't even try to start Mouser. I don't have a primer, and the fuel doesn't vaporise.
That said, *most* carburation problems are actually ignition. ;D
Chuck

 

[phzabriskie]

Below 45 degrees !!!??? Last nite here in Indiana it was -4 degrees...4 degrees below zero. This is a little hard after 3 years of sunny Las Vegas!
-Pete

 

[Gaston]

Hi all

minus 30 Celcius this morning...
Wish I was in Las vegas.

Gaston Dorval
C-GPXD S2L