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Revmaster 2180 on a Cassutt IIIM

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Vector

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
377
Location
Pacific
I know this is not the appropriate forum but I know of the resident knowledge on the forum and that is why I am asking the question.
The Sonerai deals I pursued fell through but found a Cassutt IIIM that was once flying but now has no engine.
Excuse my ignorance but what is the possibility of using a 2180cc in a Cassutt? Could I possibly re-configure the fuse? The weight of an O-200 and the average VW is comparable and that is why this is a thought.
I understand the performance will not be the same.

Thanks for the assistance.
 
Hello Falcon. Yes, the 0-200 is heavier than the 2180 VW. Best thing to do is get real info from Revmaster, or if you own the engine, weigh it with everything. I would think that the 0-200 with all accessories is over 20 lbs, heavier than the Revmaster, but findong one that somebody owns, and weighing it, is always better thanthe Continental marketing dept's weight that they list....
I imagine that the nose of the Cassutt will have to get over 3" longer than it is for the Continental......Ed F.
 
Raceair,
Thanks for the response, Do you still fly the Cassutt in your profile? Is it a IIIM?
 
Hi Falcon....I have had 5 Cassutts over the years, but now have none. The one in my Profile is now back in Kansas, but was a very famous airplane in its day. Nick Jones and 'Mother Holiday' were in the Gold Races in Reno for 7 or 8 years in a row. It is a 111M, but with a one of a kind wing. The airplane had a colorful history, but now needs a complete re-build. One of my other recent Cassutts, a 11M model,(thin wing) is now owned by Jeff Lange, who's colorful, beautiful Sonerai #64 Graces these pages.....Email me if you want to talk particulars on Cassutts.
I currently have two Formula Vee/Supervee aircraft projects. One is a 'Wood SL-1' Original design, similar to a V-witt, now in restoration. The other is my own design, Under construction, called 'Veebee'....I also have had four Sonerais over the years, the most notable being 'Blueberry', #77, which I built, and is now in a museum.
Midget racers, and Midget biplanes (I own the Mong Sport , Lil Bitts, and Varmint design rights) are in my blood, and it is an incureable disease. Right now I am not flying any of them, as I work to keep my career afloat.....Ed
 
I had been planning on putting a rear drive 2332 on my IIM. I used an aluminum case to bring the weight up and improve high power reliability.

Not sure which way I am going to go with it now. Might go O200 if I can find one at a reasonable price.
 
Revmaster 2180 on a Cassutt IIIM

Hello Falcon83

Is it possible to configure a Cassutt Racer for a VW engine?
History: Over 20 years ago I did the design work needed to convert my Cassutt IIIM Racer into a legal Formula V racer. This required considerably more than bolting on a VW engine. I will not go into details here. I called this concept the "Convertible". My Convertible was not to be a open cockpit racer. The Convertible was a Cassutt based race plane that would convert from a legal Formula one Sportplane/Racer to a legal competitive Formula V Racer with the change of the complete "firewall forward package". There would be a Formula One O-200 engine mount, engine and complete engine installation, prop/spinner and cowling "firewall forward package" and a second complete Formula V Volkswagen engine firewall forward package. This was not intended to be a competitive Formula One ( It would be fast enough to qualify at Reno), it was intended to be slightly more competitive than my "Miss Annapolis". It's real value was to be the most versatile, economical racer possible, racing 2 classes with the fixed cost of maintaining one airplane. I was never to proceed with this concept. After notifying FV of my intentions, FV wing rules changed and my Cassutt was effectively outlawed for safety (political?) reasons. Interestingly, a couple years later Formula One racer Ib Hansen was wanting to build a Volkswagen powered Cassutt to race Formula V and the FV wing rules changed back. Politics? (Ib Hansen had nothing to do with FV politics, Ib had no direct involvement in the rule change. Ib thought my Formula V Cassutt was a reasonable idea when I visited him back in 1991. I was driving home from Reno with a Cassutt wing on the roof of my van and made a last minuit detour to see him.)

I was going to refer you to Ib, then I received an email: "Amanda Younkin Franklin passed away yesterday from injuries from the airshow accident in Brownsville TX." and "Also Ib Hansen died last Sunday testing a new Cassutt that he had built." Friends are dead. My friend Ib Hansen was the Cassutt plans dealer, component and kit manufacturer, and a very experienced and competent Cassutt Formula One pilot. Why is Ib dead? I don't know what happened. I do know Ib is another of my friends who died in a test flight of a race plane. Ib is dead and knowing his experience, skill and his conservative nature, I know that this could happen to me on any flight. I know "The risks are real". I have paid my dues, I have more precautionary and dead stick emergency landing experience than I ever wanted. I had my Cassutt (blown engine) emergency landing during my 1st Formula One race at Reno. (Ib was there.) You should note that none of the dead stick landings I had to make were in any of MY airplanes. While I have the fastest Formula V, I never made the most power, I made the most reliable power. Reliable power is everthing, and it is difficult for a VW conversion to reliably meet the Cassutt power requirements.

Back to your situation. Why do you want to put a Revmaster engine in a Cassutt? Do you have the Revmaster engine? Is your sole interest in this project because a Sonerai is not available and this Cassutt is available cheap? How much do you know about Cassutts? about Sonerais? about VW aircraft engines? about Revmaster engines? What is your pilot experience? Do you know Tom Cassutt designed his racer to be a competitive Goodyear racer (the class is now Formula One) with a C-85 engine making about 100HP@3000RPM on takeoff and 120+ HP at speed? The Sonerai was designed to meet the rules of the new Formula Vee sport plane race class. The rules of Formula Vee came from legendary racer Steve Wittman who was very familiar with Goodyear/Formula one racing. Steve's Formula Vee rules were based on Formula One rules and the HP limitations of the Volkswagen engine. The race class rules were written around the race class engine with minimum wing area requirements that would be appropriate for the engine power. Formula V airplanes are designed to fly on their wings, not their engine. Short span, high wing loading and low (VW=low) power is not the best combination for long term success/life. You do understand that due to its' high span loading the Cassutt does not glide as well as the Sonerai. Also a light Cassutt IIIM stalls 70+ MPH and a Sonerai I stalls about 50 MPH, so at their slowest speeds the Cassutt is going to have at least TWICE the energy of the Sonerai. Your margin of error just got a LOT smaller. A situation (mistake) that will scare the snot out of you in a Sonerai, will kill you in a Cassutt. I am not saying the Cassutt does not have good flight characteristics. It does.

In short, I do not feel a Cassutt is a good choice for a VW powered Sport plane, A Cassutt with a VW could be a serious racer, it would not be a forgiving Sport plane. If you are an experienced pilot with high performance experimental aircraft flight test experience, and If you have knowledge and skill in airframe and engine development...Go for it. (Think first, how many VW powered Cassutt racers have you seen FLYING? ) If you already have the Revmaster engine, put it in an aircraft that was designed for a VW. If your heart is set on having a Cassutt Racer (and you have the skill to fly it) buy it and put a Continental engine in it, or at least install an engine more suited to the Cassutt's HP requirements. A hand prop Corvair could be a better choice than any VW.

Don't blindly believe me, you can't talk to Ib Hansen, Steve Wittman or Tom Cassutt , talk to William Wynne about airframe-engine compatibility. I trust William (like Ib) will give you an honest (but biased on reality) opinion based on real knowledge and experience. Before you talk to William, read the information on his site www.flycorvair.com and send him a copy of this message. If you want to learn about VW aircraft engines/ limitations, read Bob Hoover's posts on the VW engine Yahoo Group.

"You are the mechanic in charge" Bob Hoover
"You are the test pilot in the seat" Brian Dempsey

Falcon83, I am willing to talk to you if you email me your phone number.

Yours, Brian Dempsey Formula V National Champion Monnett Sonerai I pilot "Miss Annapolis", Formula V Wittman V-Witt pilot, Formula One Cassutt racer pilot

Amanda Younkin Franklin passed away yesterday from injuries from the airshow accident in Brownsville TX. www.thekathrynreport.com for details
So sorry to hear that.
Also Ib Hansen died last Sunday testing a new Cassutt that he had built.
Red
http://www.coloradodaily.com/ci_18122555?source=most_viewed#axzz1NhbaEftZ
 
Hey Brian,
Thanks for the write up on the Cassutt/VW. Sorry to hear of your friends passing.
I had considered the Cassutt when looking for a good performing sport plane. There is one on my field that has raced in Reno. What attracted me most was the airframe was designed around a certified aircraft engine, the Cont. O-200. But after comparing the Cassutt with the Sonerai I opted for the Sonerai, mainly because it's flight characteristics were a better match for what I was looking for and the VW has shown itself to be a reliable power plant. Yes, the Cassutt is faster and has a certified engine but it takes, what I felt, was a higher level of skill than I possesed at the time.Not to say the Cassutt has any bad tendencies, but rather I felt it would be a little more demanding than what I was ready for.I may one day "move up" as one may put it, but for now I feel the Sonerai is a good match for my skills and ability. Thanks again....FredL

btw.....at some point in it's life my Sonerai was flown with a Corvair engine but was converted back to it's current Aerovee.
 
Outlandar et al,
Thanks for the comprehensive responses.
I have a Revmaster engine that I need to put into something. I don't have much experience on Revmaster engines however, I have experience with auto engines. I got the Revmaster engine for a deal and have been looking for something to put it on when I found a deal on Cassutt and that is what got me thinking. I enjoy flying fast and doing aerobatic and that sounded like a good idea.

I will gladly fly a Sonerai I and I am still looking for one that is far ahead in the construction phase.

I just want to fly and have fun.

While we on this issue, is there any other racer apart from Sonerai built around a VW engine? Also, is there any all composite aircraft built around a VW engine?
 
Yes there is, The Wittman 'V-Witt', a.k.a. 'Witt's Vee', Is available as a plans-built Vee racer from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty. There also was the 'Renegade', a Cassutt-like Vee racer that was offered by the late Ib Hansen, but I doubt if you will be able to procure plans for that design now. In addition, there are also a few original designs out there, one is mine, the Veebee, which will eventually be available in plans and component package form....Ed F.
 
Raceair said:
Yes there is, The Wittman 'V-Witt', a.k.a. 'Witt's Vee', Is available as a plans-built Vee racer from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty. There also was the 'Renegade', a Cassutt-like Vee racer that was offered by the late Ib Hansen, but I doubt if you will be able to procure plans for that design now. In addition, there are also a few original designs out there, one is mine, the Veebee, which will eventually be available in plans and component package form....Ed F.
Thanks Raceair. I knew about the V-Witt and Lasher Renegade. Don't know why I did not remember that. Something Carbon fiber would be great if only I had enough expertise to design one.
 
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