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Sonerai 1

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vhensley

Active Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Messages
44
I just purchased a S1 project and brought it home , only lacking covering , paint , Aileron tips and windshield basically. Clean up the wiring and change out a few buts and nolts , but it is by far the most meticulous build I have ever seen . It looks like every part was cut by waterjet or cnc and every weld is tig . Not sure who the original builder was but I tip my hat to his abilities and I’m looking forward to getting it in the air . I’m leaning towards the yellow and red shoestring paint right now but that’s not set in stone at this point. I’m 5’10 and 175 and it’s tight with the canopy closed , head touches the cassutt style canopy and shoulders touch the fuselage sides but plenty of leg room , being somewhat Claustrophobic I have a few concerns there but time will tell .
 

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Congrats on the purchase. I really wanted the pick this up as it was only 70 miles from me. The pics the seller sent, along with the history and the price made it a no- brainer... Unfortunately I'm in the process of moving to Tennessee from eastern Ohio so my retirement project will have to wait.
Congrats again on a killer deal.
 
Yeah it definitely couldn’t be passed up , I blew up the pics he sent and could see the quality of workmanship in the plane and bought it pretty much unseen .
thanks
 
You have a chance to make a new “skull cap”. Yes it might not look as sleek with a bit of a bump. But if done right or faired in on top of turtle deck with some foam and fiberglass, once covered it would look sweet! And build in an extra inch or two headroom for comfort.

Just a thought. Your plane looks awesome!
 
One question how do you go about getting an air worthiness certificate after you buy it that far a long

As long as 51% is amateur-built it isn't a problem. That doesn't have to be only one person doing 51%. It could be dozens of people as long as they are all doing it basically for personal gratification and not professionally. With a Sonerai, since it is a "plans built" airplane it pretty much automatically complies, but it would be best if you can get a builders logbook or progress pictures from the chain of builders.
 
Beautiful plane but:
One question how do you go about getting an air worthiness certificate after you buy it that far a long
Good question and I'l offer an opinion from experience. You must be able to show that the aircraft was amateur built. You can do that with a build log, or possibly a "build log" that consists of parts and materials purchase receipts, build progress photos, etc. The DAR will demand to see proof. The Corvair Sonerai I bought ran into that problem. The original builder [falsly] reported to the FAA the registered aircraft was trashed and would not turn over the build information to the new owner. New owner went round-n-round with the DAR to register and get the AW cert re-issued. No go. He could not show it was amateur built. It's a parts airplane.

Recently, I inquired to a "friend of the builder" about an experimental that had a N number but no AW cert. Asked if the build information was available. "Friend" insisted that the information was not necessary and would not be provided. End of inquiry. Documentation the FAA requires to obtain an AW cert for an amateur built aircraft:
  • AC Form 8050-3, "Certificate of Aircraft Registration".
  • Aircraft Builders Log.
  • Sufficient information to clearly identify the aircraft, such as photographs or three-view drawings.
  • A notarized FAA Form 8130-12 (PDF), "Eligibility Statement, Amateur-Built Aircraft".
  • A program letter in accordance with 14 CFR section 21.191(g).
https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/ultralights/amateur_built/aw/
 
Whatever country you live in, speak to the regional Airworthiness Inspector. He/she will want to inspect the aircraft. Apply for a Certificate of Airworthiness. Where I live it's a Special Certificate of Airworthiness. Where I fly there are 26 documents you need to carry to be legal. Find out what you need in your country. In my experience Airworthiness Inspectors need to go and ask a superior to get answers. So write all your questions down. That helps you not to ask stupid questions. Also, ask someone who has recently got a CofA, who to do, what to get. Recency matters.
Bill E
s/n 0072

As long as 51% is amateur-built it isn't a problem. That doesn't have to be only one person doing 51%. It could be dozens of people as long as they are all doing it basically for personal gratification and not professionally. With a Sonerai, since it is a "plans built" airplane it pretty much automatically complies, but it would be best if you can get a builders logbook or progress pictures from the chain of builders.
 
A prospective amateur-built owner will face some significant obstacles trying to certify another builder's build without proper documentation of that build. Here's the official procedure for obtaining an amateur-built air worthiness:
https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/order/faa_order_8130.2j.pdf
It's about 200 pages. Section 15 deals with Sonerai-type builds. The required showing of the builder's log is pretty stringent although there is no designated format.

I found the FAA build check list for the Sonerai. See Appendix 8 of the following for how the FAA evaluate amateur built. https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_20-27G.pdf

I'd suggest discussing the pre-built percentages with the DAR before asking to certify a purchased previously built aircraft. One will get into 51% doo-doo otherwise. Get the DAR to approve in writing or initialed plans or the form, the assembly build percentages that you need to establish that your aircraft is 51% amateur built. This guidance encourages us to reach out and touch the FSDO/DAR as the first step in our "build". Notice that the "inspection and determination of eligibility (51% rule) comes after the aircraft is built. To avoid much heartache, anguish, gnashing of teeth, etc., move this step up to the initial discussion so there is a meeting of the minds when we are using parts from a previously built airframe. If you show them a whole pre-built but undocumented-build aircraft and you are going to be shot down in flames. The FAA sees anything more than 10% of a contracted build to not be amateur built unless its part of an approved kit. They could interpret the purchase of a pre-built Sonerai that has no amateur-built documentation as a purchased fabrication:

"Note: The major portion of the aircraft is defined as more than
50 percent of the fabrication and assembly tasks, commonly referred to as the “51-percent rule.” For example, an amateur-built kit found on the FAA List of Amateur-Built Aircraft Kits has 40 percent of the fabrication/assembly completed by the kit manufacturer. In order to be eligible for an experimental amateur-built airworthiness certificate and per the major portion rule, the fabrication and assembly tasks that may be contracted out (for hire) to another individual (or builder/commercial assistance center) needs to be less than 10 percent."https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_20-27G.pdf

FAA defines building in terms of fabrication and assembly. Assembly is not defined and I think applies mostly to FAA-approved kits. Fabrication (as in Sonerai) is defined as:

"6. Fabricate. To perform work on any material, part, or component, such as layout, bending, countersinking, straightening, cutting, sewing, gluing/bonding, layup, forming, shaping, trimming, drilling, deburring, machining, applying protective coatings, surface preparation and priming, riveting, welding, or heat treating, and transforming the material, part, or component toward or into its finished state."
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/FAA_Order_8130.35B.pdf
I'd resist the temptation to fudge the builder's log. Probably a felony.

"1. Amateur Builder. A builder(s) who fabricates and assembles the major portion of an aircraft with the intent of obtaining an experimental aircraft airworthiness certificate." You gotta prove it.

John Monnet would be the authority on percentages to assign to portions of a build. Plenty of Sonerai builders could chime in on that. Worth noting that engines and paint and some other things are not part of the build in the eyes of the FAA.

Primarily, the build is the airframe, wings, fabric, controls, and control surfaces. Those things that make it look like a Sonerai. Props, engines, instruments, and paint, etc. are generic. That's why a major aircraft manufacturer got away with putting gigantic engines on their old design, and succeeded in converting some of the aircraft into lawn, or ocean darts. Flying Tiger, still a P-40.
1614702746095.png

PS. If the builder/seller is reluctant to certify and supply the build documentation, offer to sign a 100% release of liability, 'as is' form. Many builders won't sell their undocumented creation with the build logs because they have the mistaken belief that they may incur liability if sell with the build logs and the buyer pulls the wings off in a 9 g. Not true. Suggest that they see an aviation lawyer if in doubt since the run-of-the-mill lawyer is scared of aircraft, flying, and amateur built means something like franenkstein. As such, they will be overly cautious and afraid of their shadow. The EAA should offer a seller liability release form if it doesn't already.
 
Beautiful plane but:

Good question and I'l offer an opinion from experience. You must be able to show that the aircraft was amateur built. You can do that with a build log, or possibly a "build log" that consists of parts and materials purchase receipts, build progress photos, etc. The DAR will demand to see proof. The Corvair Sonerai I bought ran into that problem. The original builder [falsly] reported to the FAA the registered aircraft was trashed and would not turn over the build information to the new owner. New owner went round-n-round with the DAR to register and get the AW cert re-issued. No go. He could not show it was amateur built. It's a parts airplane.

Recently, I inquired to a "friend of the builder" about an experimental that had a N number but no AW cert. Asked if the build information was available. "Friend" insisted that the information was not necessary and would not be provided. End of inquiry. Documentation the FAA requires to obtain an AW cert for an amateur built aircraft:
  • AC Form 8050-3, "Certificate of Aircraft Registration".
  • Aircraft Builders Log.
  • Sufficient information to clearly identify the aircraft, such as photographs or three-view drawings.
  • A notarized FAA Form 8130-12 (PDF), "Eligibility Statement, Amateur-Built Aircraft".
  • A program letter in accordance with 14 CFR section 21.191(g).
https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/ultralights/amateur_built/aw/
If form 8130-12 said the the person submitting the form built the major portion of the project how can you get around that when it is so far along?
 
If form 8130-12 said the the person submitting the form built the major portion of the project how can you get around that when it is so far along?

That isn't what it says. It says:

I certify that the major portion of this aircraft (identified in Section II above) was fabricated and assembled by (Names of all builders) solely for my (our) education or recreation, in accordance with 14 CFR part 21, Certification Procedures for Products and Parts, §21.191(g), Operating amateur-built aircraft. I have records to support this statement and will make them available to the FAA upon request.

Notice that "builders" is plural, and solely for our (plural) education or recreation. Just have to list all the builders. That is why it is important to have a paper trail. However, every DAR/FSDO inspector is probably going to have their own criteria for determining eligibility. Some more lax than others. When I had my Sonerai certified by a MIDO inspector way back in 1992 he did not even look at my build log or pictures.
 
If form 8130-12 said the the person submitting the form built the major portion of the project how can you get around that when it is so far along?
What the FAA requires for "amateur built" is specified in the regs. "Major portion" refers to the 51% amateur rule, not to a specific individual. There are basically two sets of rules. One set for scratch-built, like a Sonerai, and another set for "kit-built", like the Sonex. One could also say that there are two other unstated rules: one set for rich builders and another set for those who are generally more strapped for cash and don't own corporations. For a description of how the "Rich rule" works, visit the Lancair Evolution website, which describes how they massage the 51% rule to enable a "builder" (Including a LLC) to "build" a pressurized, retractable, $1.5 million "experimental" carbon fiber turbine aircraft that flies nearly 400 mph at FL28, with six weeks of actual work: http://www.evolutionaircraft.com/faq/
The FAA probably deals with an Evolution team that includes several lawyers who have successfully gotten the FAA to agree what the amateur-built rules mean for the Evolution kit. On the other hand, we lowly Sonerai builders generally go one-on-one with the DAR. Coffee and donuts may help. John, above, said that in 1992, the inspector didn't even look. I think times may have changed, but maybe not.

So, here is a suggestion for how to buy a non-registered, lacking an airworthy certificate, experimental "aircraft" that is say, 95% complete from a builder who is afraid of liability or reluctant to turn over the build logs that you are going to need if your inspector is not happy doing just a one-donut once over. If you need that log and you don't have it, your certification is toast:

1. Contact the builder of the aircraft being built and say that you are interested in building it to finish certification and registration in your name only and you are willing to reimburse the seller for the materials at an agreed price. Since the aircraft is not built 100%, any portion that you build is a contribution to building 51% of an amateur-built aircraft. Have a discussion of the following and get an agreement.

2. Conceptually, you want the seller to understand that they may be, and should be, proud of their skills, but that you are not offering to buy any of that skilled work. You are interested only in documenting that you are purchasing materials as agreed, that happen to be stuck together. Offer to sign a contract with the 95% builder, that reimburses the 95%er for the COST of materials and the build log. You must buy both of them. (Keep in mind that your purchase cost of the materials from the 95%er is not going to = the original cost of the materials. It's going to = the price of what the 95%er wants from you for those materials, which is probably going to = more like what the seller wanted for the "nearly complete aircraft". Perfectly legal. Happens a billion times a day all over the world. (Like the $500 titanium bike frame made in China, that is imported unchanged and sold for $5000 in the US by a retailer).

That makes you the owner of the stuck-together materials and the build log. You could put an "AS IS" disclaimer in there if need be: ("Name" makes no warranty of the quality of the materials or the quality of work performed by "Name", an amateur builder, in helping to assemble the materials or documenting the build log). The materials may look substantially like an aircraft, but in the eyes of the FAA, it's not an aircraft until the FAA says it is. The materials are just materials that can be assembled, disassembled, and reassembled as often as necessary. (How many times are rivets drilled out and rebucked? Welds cut apart and re-welded? FAA does not care on amateur built- it is expected and even encouraged - e.g. EAA workshops). This contract can remain private and is not part of the process of getting the project's airworthiness certificate. On the other hand, you should use that materials purchase list to document your purchase of the materials from the 95%er. Just don't assign any prices for weldments or other assembly work. You are just buying materials at an agreed price. Whether the longeron is welded into an assembly is irrelevant, you still have to buy four of them. Of course, you are going to carefully inspect the materials, the project, to satisfy yourself that they are what they are represented to be. Then move the "materials" and build log to another hanger or garage with your own lock after you pay for them.

3. Perform and document the other 5% of the work, which should ideally be done with the 95% builder who knows the materials you have just purchased along with the build log. You could pay for that time. Or just finish it yourself. Either way makes you a truthful builder who is adding your work to the 51% build and to the build log.

4. Register the aircraft in your name as the builder.

5. Obtain the airworthiness inspection by arranging for the inspection and supplying the necessary forms that certify you are "the builder" and document the amateur build with the logs and materials purchased.

That should satisfy the FAA. You do not need to use the FAA build form to document the build. The build log will do, especially one with photos.

Because the 95%er has not built or sold "an aircraft", there is no liability to you or anyone else for a "faulty" aircraft, and the FAA should be happy because you have documented your build of an amateur built aircraft with materials and build log as referenced earlier: https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_20-27G.pdf

If the 95%er won't transfer the build log, I'd pass on it because the risk of inspection failure is nearly 100% if your inspector demands to see it and you don't have it.
 
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