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What to look for in a used IIL or IILS

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Bruce23

Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
5
Hi, I’m new to the forum and hoping for a little guidance. I have thought for years now that I would build a plane but right now I don’t seem to be any closer than I was 10 years ago. So, I think that I will buy a completed IIL or IILS.
My question is what should I look out for? What qualities make for a more enjoyable plane? I did a couple of quick searches and didn’t come up with much.
I have heard about the ‘s-mod’ but don’t know what it looks like. I’m sure there are many other things to consider.
Would it be helpful to the community if I took all the suggestions and made a buyer’s guide?
All the best Bruce
 
Hi Bruce and welcome.
Pilots will look for different things.
Flying or project
If flying - registered?/AW certificate?/condition inspection?
Comfort - your size determines
Engine type -size/source
Color scheme
Location of airplane
Size and shape of tail
Age
Type of instruments and radio
Extended range tanks?
...and then make it your own!
Hope this helps.
Matt
 
Hi Matt, what I was wondering about is there Sonerai specific things to look for. If I can’t find a local Sonerai expert to help me look at a plane, I was hoping the people here could help me put together a list of areas to pay close attention to.
For instance:
The S-mod, I know what it is but I’m not sure if you can tell if it has been done without pealing the wing skin off.
I understand that it is important to get the leading edge of the wing the correct shape and that this effects the stall characteristics.
Weight, lighter the better. Perhaps 550 lbs for a light plane and 570 lbs for a stretch?
Bruce
 
Bruce,
You can see the wing mod when the wings are removed (check out my gallery) - i.e. when you can see inside the wing root. From the outside you can look for the additional webbing for the wing-walk but that doesn't show the whole picture.
Wing profiles could be checked with a block of wood cut to the profile...
It's best that anyone buying a Sonerai or any other experimental makes themselves familiar with the aircraft by researching thoroughly. Things like wing profiles aren't unique to the Sonerai - that applies to any kit without prefabricated parts.
There's no short cut to understanding your new airplane before buying it.
Look at bent gear, corrosion, cracks in tubing, cracks in the skin, quality of covering, history of aircraft, documents, knowledge of owner.
The Sonerai is a well designed and very simple airplane - there isn't any inherent issue to look for.
 
Sonerai's are widely modified to fit a given height owner. That includes things like raising the turtle deck. Which then can lead to modifying tail height or area. Which is apparently sometimes done anyway to more or less degree.

Original S2 was 925 GW. If original un-modified wings are included, that would be the limit. At that GW, some other things are ok that would not be good on the heavier versions - e.g., 1/2" thick gear.

A canopy now is almost $700. With crate and shipping it comes very close to $1,000 delivered unless you live within pick-up distance of one of the providers. & then there is a ton of work and risk to fit it. All else being acceptable, it could be worth finding one with a good canopy in the tint (or not) desired.

Engines is a whole 'nother subject. All the VW options, a few Subarus, and now Jabiru's. Wish i could afford to put a Varner in the nose of mine. ;D

On a personal level, I wanted an electric system, position and landing lights, and extra fuel in wing tanks. These are things that can be added, but not easily. Hydraulic disc brakes.

Small details, like antennae that work can save a lot of time and trouble shooting.

It would be a nice resource if you develop it.

smt
 
Bruce-

Be HIGHLY suspicious unless you know the builder and saw it being built (airframe and engine). Every home built is unique and dependent 100% on the builder's skill, materials, maintenance, and flight history. (Mmmm, what kind of rivets are those?) I'd guess that a used Sonerai with some hours on it is a better bet than a newly minted aircraft. But used can also mean over-stressed, ground looped, etc. You really should see the build logs and material receipts. Some builders are meticulous and use only aircraft quality and approved methods, while others shop at Home Depot.

Matt Myer's rebuilt Sonerai is up for sale on Barnstormers apparently by someone who just purchased it. It is still registered to Myers it seems. (https://www.barnstormers.com/ad_detail.php?id=1498989). Myers posted several youtube videos of his rebuild and they look like he did a really good job. I considered buying that one myself. He had it for sale for $15,000. Now it shows up for sale again with a new but uninstalled engine (no time for an A&P seller to install?) for $10,000. One might wonder why. You just gotta be very careful. I bought a Sonerai that i discovered later had a serious engine issue and oil-canned spars (overstressed). You gotta know what to look for, I did not. I've learned that buying a used airplane is like buying a used car. (Ever see that movie, "Breaking Away"? Funny used car scene; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IExD-J4_F8). Get someone who knows Sonerai to go with you to check out any Sonerai you are seriously interested in purchasing and get a pre-purchase inspection. It's worth the money. Pretend you are from Missouri if you are not ("Show me!").

E.G. (I bought my Karatoo from an A&P who signed off on the condition inspection. I'm thinking that's gotta be a safe airplane and done right! Flew it 15 hours on that assumption. Hired another A&P to do a condition inspection and discovered the PSRU only had 60 cc of oil instead of the 600cc it as supposed to have in it; no gasket on carb, no air cleaner under screen, finger-tight coolant hoses, friable vacuum lines, leaking gas tank, dry-rot tires, brakes worn out, original alternator belt [from 1999] etc. etc.). On the plus side, the wings are good, fabric good, engine good, and flies great. But, I also replaced the BRS, just to be sure.

Theo
 
If you see an ad that says, "Sold with fresh A&P IA Condition Inspection"HOIST THE WARNING FLAG!"

I'd like to believe that all FAA certified A&Ps with or without IA are trustworthy. I'm sorry to say that after 40 years in aviation there are some crooks out there like in any business. The point here is, you need to find one that you can trust with your life (and there are a lot of those out there). I'm not A&P bashing. Someone needs to perform a pre-purchase inspection - either you, if qualified, or !!YOUR!! A&P - Better both!

Lately, I have been on the search for a higher performance experimental to put in my hangar. I have looked at 5 so far. All were advertised as either "award winners", "built by repeat builder", and "built by A&P IA", and all had just had a Condition Inspection performed by an AP IA (IA not required), 1 was done at a certified Repair Facility. While the pictures in Barnstormers made these planes look like the best of the bunch, ALL had substantial multiple issues that made them UNAIRWORTHY! The one that was still at the repair facility was the worse with cracks in all tail control surfaces, wiring that looked like a rats nest, unlabeled switches, levers, and push pull controls, poor airframe repairs and false log entries. The winner was the steel wool stuffed into a scat tube flange with no scat tube.?? Other planes had damage history (prop strike not recorded), leaking fuel tanks, mandatory Service Bulletins not complied with, paperwork issues (registration and airworthiness certificates out of date, missing, or just wrong, or 17 repeated logbook entries, "Performed Condition Inspection - No issues found."

Had I been looking for a project, some of these could have been negotiated into a deal, but since I was a few thousand miles from home, now I needed a ride. I have learned that logbook entries can be meaningless as well as the signature below it. You can't trust it and verifying isn't enough. You must have the inspection done by someone you can trust.

If you buy an airplane like this that the previous owner is trying to unload on you, you just bought a dead horse. The best way to protect yourself is the get smart yourself and bring along an A&P that has knowledge in the type of airplane you are interested in. Web sites like this one are great places to get smart on type specific issues. Talk to a DAR and builders. A logbook is a great place to spend some time. They often provide hints, like, "Refurbished cowl with new air intakes and completely refinished same, upgraded nose landing gear strut, fairing, and fork to comply with Service Bulletin XXXX, rebuilt MS MA4-SPA, replaced prop with ….. Can you say Prop Strike!

It is even more difficult with these little airplanes given that many are built, flown, and maintained outside of standard practices (that may be a good thing also). Buyer beware.

Good luck on your search

John
 
I like horsepower. I found the VW engines low on Power. My Jabiru 2200 only delivered say 75 hp, which proved inadequate as I weighed 250 lbs. weigh 240 now.
After 5 years of flying alone I installed a Jabiru 3300. in high cruise it gets 3300 RPM which is 127hp. That gives say 180 knots. Static RPM is 2850. It takes off from turn in 1200; from asphalt less than 1000'.
Frankly it's breathtaking to fly. I'm 72 years now.
I have both an elevator trim tab and electric stab trim, for larger changes in CG. Mine has 2 X 7 gal Hoerner tip tanks.
Bill E
 
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