Yamaha apex

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Ls1swap

Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2020
Messages
12
New here and did a search and didn't find anything on the subject. Has anyone put a yamaha apex in a sonerai? They weigh about 140lbs starter and all and make a 130hp. Seems like it would be a good fit.
 

lightningjack

Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2007
Messages
6
hi guys. I'm building a 2ls and am looking around for an engine. I've seen a 200hp version of the Apex put out by Edge Performance. It comes as a complete package with wiring loom and ECU ready to install. It weighs the same as a Rotax 915iS. Is this a viable option for my 2LS or is it too much power. Thanks in advance
 

Elviar

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Joined
Feb 25, 2015
Messages
48
Location
Ortonville, MI
How much power does it make at 3600 RPM, or do you plan to use a speed reduction device? If you could actually get 200 HP to the propeller it might be a handful. In any case, you have to be mindful of the never exceed speed limit.
 

SoneraiKid

New Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2017
Messages
3
Location
Seattle, WA
I think the apex would be a good candidate in trimmed down NA form. As light as possible, Edge Performance adds turbos and makes big power. A cowling and cooling would be the biggest challenges.
 

Bil438

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Joined
Oct 17, 2007
Messages
809
My Sonerai II LS has a Jabiru 3300. It gets off quickly, has reached 200 kts, climbs at 1500 fpm on mild days. Probably can exceed the Vne and the G limits in rate one turns. Weighs say 190 lbs. At 3300 rpm it delivers 127 hp. Can't imagine a reason why 127hp would not be enough? Also really like the 7 main bearings. How many mains in the Apex?. With a propeller, it matters
Bill

hi guys. I'm building a 2ls and am looking around for an engine. I've seen a 200hp version of the Apex put out by Edge Performance. It comes as a complete package with wiring loom and ECU ready to install. It weighs the same as a Rotax 915iS. Is this a viable option for my 2LS or is it too much power. Thanks in advance
 

n109jb

Active Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2013
Messages
43
Location
Morris, IL
My Sonerai II LS has a Jabiru 3300. It gets off quickly, has reached 200 kts, climbs at 1500 fpm on mild days. Probably can exceed the Vne and the G limits in rate one turns. Weighs say 190 lbs. At 3300 rpm it delivers 127 hp. Can't imagine a reason why 127hp would not be enough? Also really like the 7 main bearings. How many mains in the Apex?. With a propeller, it matters
Bill
Apex uses a reduction unit so it likely has 2 bearings on the prop shaft. Unless you want to turn the prop 8-9000 rpm
 

DeadRinger

Active Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2012
Messages
40
Location
KAPV
Fuel injected? Not a bad price. Would be a great price if it came with a electric prop.
 

Thaddeus

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Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Messages
199
Location
Valparaiso, Indiana
Aeromomentum makes a nice engine package that uses new engines and comes with FADEC fuel injection + PSRU. 117 HP low profile is $12,500. 185#. This hp is nearly 2x original Sonerai VW spec, so plenty of scoot. 4 g/hr @ 55% cruise. They offer more HP versions, but do you really need it? If you are trying to run 150 HP, your 10 gallon tank is going to drain very quickly so you'd be spending more time at the pump than you'd save getting anywhere. http://www.aeromomentum.com/am15.html



1593783404020.png
 

phzabriskie

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2006
Messages
2,259
Location
Santa Fe, New Mexico
Aeromomentum makes a nice engine package that uses new engines and comes with FADEC fuel injection + PSRU. 117 HP low profile is $12,500. 185#. This hp is nearly 2x original Sonerai VW spec, so plenty of scoot. 4 g/hr @ 55% cruise. They offer more HP versions, but do you really need it? If you are trying to run 150 HP, your 10 gallon tank is going to drain very quickly so you'd be spending more time at the pump than you'd save getting anywhere. http://www.aeromomentum.com/am15.html



View attachment 15058
You got my attention with this post. I took a look at this. It is made in Stuart Fl home to a good friend of mine. Looks like a good option. :)
 

mx5tc

Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2018
Messages
22
Location
Naperville, IL
The AM13 engine has a "dry weight" of 180lbs which may be too much for a Sonerai after you factor in the weight of a radiator, hoses, cooling liquid and exhaust system (AM website is a bit vague regarding real world installed weight of engine with gear reduction unit, engine mount, radiator, hoses, coolant and exhaust system). An Apex engine with gear reduction unit, engine mount, radiator, hoses, coolant and exhaust is about 180lbs and makes more power (120-150hp). There is a very active Facebook Group supporting the Apex & RX-1 (earlier carb version) 4 cylinder motors and a DIY'er can easily do an Apex aeroconversion for under $10K (using the same gear reduction box included with the $15K Edge Performance 150hp model). Not sure of how well AM has penetrated the market, but there are a significant number of autogyros and light STOL aircraft flying with Yamaha RX-1/Apex conversions. These engines has been pretty much bulletproof in snowmobiles for a long time and are now proving to be reliable in aircraft.
 

Bil438

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2007
Messages
809
Some Sonerai's have 2 fuel tanks. My header tank is 6 imperial gals, say 7.5 (approx) USG and my Aux Tank holds 10 imp. But with the J3300 and it's 21 L/hr consumption 16 gals doesn't get me quite far enough. No sooner do you switch to the aux tank after takeoff than you start thinking about fuel to get back home.
So, one of the guys here(Sonerai Builders) made Hoerner wingtips. I made them too, just enough wider to hold 3.5 gals each. With 7 US Gals extra, Total fuel is 99.1 liters/ 21 L/hr = 4.7 hrs at say 75%. Might be near 150 mph at 75%. Range with no reserve=705 miles.
So, those Hoerner Tiptanks give you just enough transfer fuel that you are thinking about when to start transferring, not when you'll be empty. Regrets? Can't believe I didn't go for 105 Liters for 5 hours.
I did a series of articles on building the Hoerner Wingtips for the EAA e-publication "BIT&PIECES"
PS one of the ways you get lost in fuel, is to have tanks built to Imperial, tank gauges in USG, and fuelflow in Liters/hr. 3 different fuel measurement systems is how the B767 became the Gimli Glider, north of Winnipeg.
Bill

5
You got my attention with this post. I took a look at this. It is made in Stuart Fl home to a good friend of mine. Looks like a good option. :)
 

Bil438

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2007
Messages
809
1594123850884.png

THIS IS WHAT the Hoerner Wing tips look like. Supposed to increase cruise speed by 2 knots at say 75%. Mine are a few inches longer. Bill

You got my attention with this post. I took a look at this. It is made in Stuart Fl home to a good friend of mine. Looks like a good option. :)
 

Thaddeus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Messages
199
Location
Valparaiso, Indiana
The Apex is about 140-180 # without an exhaust, dry, depending on who you want to believe. https://www.rotaryforum.com/threads/weight-rotax-912-vs-yamaha-yg4.48114/ ; http://avidfoxflyers.com/index.php?/topic/5824-yamaha-apex-skytrax-adapters/ . It's a 1,000 cc engine, so it has to really spin to get the HP. The Aeromomentum is 1,500 cc, so it should produce the same HP as the Apex at about 1/3 less RPM. Swift is interesting, if only on paper. What's that saying about something being too good to be true? Since I have a Corvair hanging on a Sonerai parked in my hangar, thought I'd revisit that. 3,000 cc shaft drive, air cooled, but 225#. I've seen aluminum jugs that are supposed to knock off 17#. Wm Wynne has a Corvair build school coming up, so maybe I'll do that. It was about $6,000 to build out what I have. The wife does not want to fly with me anyway, so weight is not an issue. The Jabi is interesting but I can't seem to find a price for the 3300 anywhere. The Australian authorities did pitch a fit over their reliability issues- maybe those have been resolved now with the new engine versions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jabiru_3300. Several members have built the wing tips, Schmleff documented his build. Anyway, interesting discussion.

Flat out, the Corvair will burn through 10 gallons an hour. Here is the fuel consumption formula for any engine including one from a snowmobile - (Borrowed from another site or two) "No need to look at specific engines to compare fuel burn. Put a 2850 cc Corvair and a O-320 Lycoming in otherwise identical Panthers. Put them side-by-side and run the airspeed up to 150. The Corvair will be running close to WOT and the Lycoming will be loafing along. As a very general statement, they will both be making close to the same horsepower. If that's the case, they'll both be burning about the same amount of fuel. For detailed info, Google BFSC. Or read this: http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/004149.html " or check out: https://flycorvair.net/2017/01/12/critical-understanding-9-percent-of-power-and-fuel-flow/

So, again, HP = fuel = weight. The lightest weight for the same HP is an optimal solution. When going up graph to more HP and/or more speed, then the fuel weight penalty starts to show. Notice how big the fuel tank was on the Space Shuttle launches? The engineers can also learn us about induced parasites dragging on our airframes as that speed increases. A P-47 had 2,000 Hp to move it to the front. Cheers!

1594162487950.png
 

DeadRinger

Active Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2012
Messages
40
Location
KAPV
Rule of thumb HP and drop a digit and cut in half that will be your Cruz fuel burn. Ie 200hp is about 10gpa Cruze. 160hp is 8gph Cruze fuel burn. Cool huh?
 

kennyw

2nd and current "Caretaker" N994SP
Joined
Aug 27, 2017
Messages
170
Location
Mount Vernon, WA
My Sonerai II LS has a Jabiru 3300. It gets off quickly, has reached 200 kts, climbs at 1500 fpm on mild days. Probably can exceed the Vne and the G limits in rate one turns. Weighs say 190 lbs. At 3300 rpm it delivers 127 hp. Can't imagine a reason why 127hp would not be enough? Also really like the 7 main bearings. How many mains in the Apex?. With a propeller, it matters
Bill
@Bil438, I gotta ask: what is your S-IIL's empty weight?
 

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